I Lost The Faith. Truth! My Story.

January 21, 2010 at 10:48 am 40 comments

I wanted to post since I haven’t posted for a while. I just approved a post that was left in my “Anti-Mormon Literature, Don’t Doubt!!” post several months ago. They made a comment that struck home to me. One of the reasons why I haven’t posted in so long is because I have been struggling. Yes, I will admit it, just as I have before. It’s been hard for me because I lost my recommend again. I lost my calling along with it. I’m maybe a few months away from retaining it, but believe me it’s been harder than ever for me. Reason being because I let my fire die when I broke the covenant that I did. Before I did what I did I remember quite clearly justifying in my head that if I did what I did I knew what would happen. I’d lose my calling, I’d lose my recommend, it’s just easier to sin now pay later. And honestly it was. At first I didn’t regret doing what I did. Not one bit. But then a few days later the fear of what I had done lead me fast and far past depression. I tried to commit suicide. My best friend knew about it and called my bishop. My bishop asked to speak to me and I dumped everything on him. As I was meeting with him a second time to discuss having what is called a “Bishopric Counsel” where the bishopric meets as judges, you tell your story, and they then deliberate for sometimes up to an hour about what your consiquence could be, I worried in my mind of being what is called disfellowshipped or even excommunicated. Through revelation given him as a bishop and steward over me, I didn’t need to go through what would have been the third Bishopric Counsel in my life. He and I, with the help of a therapist would help me get through my vicious cycle I’d put myself on. There were deeper issues I had to deal with. And they were right. When I was 15 I had been raped. The issue had be suppressed and when I was half way through my mission and confronted with the trial of a life time – almost being raped, along with my companion, by our neighbor – those memories came shooting back up. Almost 4 months after being home not only had my life fallen to pieces, but I attempted to sleep with someone. I couldn’t do it, was too scared, but lost my recommend anyway. I Got it back that next year and then though things were going so well, the cycle happened again. I got depressed after a horrible break up and attempted to do the same thing. The results were the same. I couldn’t do it. I lost my recommend anyway! That second time I thought I had everything under control. I’d decided I was going to try my hardest to keep my recommend and do everything the Lord asked me. For once I felt like the spiritual powerhouse I felt before my mission. I received a calling at the temple as an ordinance worker. It felt GREAT to know I was in good standing with the Lord. I started dating my best friend to only break up with him within a month. I took that blow the hardest of all! Though, I didn’t feel like I wanted to rush out and find a guy to cure the problem… This time I found myself becoming increasingly bitter. My calling became a job. The promises I kept telling people made me angry… Though I had thousands and thousands of faith inspiring moments my faith became increasingly weaker until suddenly I found I had very little. I barely remember the reasons why it happened, but when a guy I had dated months before attempted to convince me that we could be “make out buddies” the thought didn’t sound good to me. I went anyway. I hoped it wouldn’t turn that way, but it did. Only one night and it sickened me. I told my bishop that next day… He asked me to report to the temple I would be on leave for a month. I did as told. Things from then on, I hoped, would get better. But they didn’t. That next month I had my next trial and failed miserably. An elder from my mission that I barely knew contacted me. He was going to be in town and wanted to catch up. I knew he was no good, but I wanted to give him a chance to prove me wrong. The whole time we were hanging out he tried to convince me to sleep with him… He made me feel cheep – and I fell for it. Something inside me wanted to believe he was right about me. To my utter embarrassment, in one stupid moment, knowing full well what I was doing, I gave up my calling and my temple recommend that I had worked SO HARD to get back. He told me not to regret it because he wouldn’t. I didn’t at first… And then like I said before, it went far past depression. I went suicidal. There were moments I am ashamed to admit I didn’t even believe there was a God. I had no idea if all the things I’d been learning were true. Promises I wasn’t seeing keep being my focus. It was hard to see anything else. Sure the doctrine sounded like it had no holes, but if I didn’t believe in God that left one HUGE hole… The thought of no God always brought me to tears for some reason… I tried to find help and comfort. Prayer didn’t help, I heard and felt NOTHING. In total opposite of what everyone tells you to do, I stopped praying, attending church – how could I go to church now that I’d let EVERYONE down, paying tithing, reading my scriptures….

My dark depression went on for several months until one day as I sat in my new bishop’s office and he asked my story I sat and thought for a moment… I told him how I longed for the day I could get up on fast and testimony meeting and tell the ward “I know that Christ is REAL. I know that there IS A GOD.”…. I sat a thought of the moments I had when I worked in the temple… When my very first shift for the day was to be in the Celestial Room… How I felt the burning in my heart as I silently prayed that the promises I had been promised would be a reality and that he would ease my broken heart… That moment as I told the bishop I wanted to feel THAT again, I started to cry. It wasn’t pity for my situation, it was actual tears of thankfulness… I FELT IT! I felt it again!!! I felt the spirit!!! For the first time in MONTHS I allowed myself to feel the spirit again. I had humbled myself enough to let pride get out of the way and acknowledge the Lord and His hand in my life.

I’m still struggling down this road. I don’t have my recommend back, and believe me there are moments when pride does get in the way of my progress and I step back a few miles… But I KNOW without hesitation that he’s there. Every time I imagine that he isn’t I feel the difference. It’s dark and lonely. Nothing makes sense. But I cannot doubt the fact that I know he’s there, loves me, knows me, and will always care for me. No matter how many STUPID things I do.

So to the person who posted that comment the other day – thank you. Thank you for the moment you gave me, to not only share and relate in our struggles, but to also acknowledge that though I may be human, I still know that he’s there. Just as much as you do. We’re not perfect. But one day, we can be. I am not afraid to bear testimony that the Lord, Jesus Christ is my Redeemer and Savior. That through His redeeming sacrifice it made it possible that I might enjoy the blessings of eternal life and the opportunity for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom – in my loving, caring, and amazing Father’s presence. And these blessings are not only mine but every living soul’s upon the earth through our good deeds, kind words and trust in the Lord. I am so awh-struck by the love that my Father has for us to create a plan so sublime that he elected a lamb, to sacrifice to the broken law, that we may all come home if we lay our sins upon it.

And this is my story and my humble testimony that there is a God, that there is a plan, that we are not perfect, and through the mercy and grace of the Lamb of God I can become.
In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

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Mormon Myths My New Home

40 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Troy Grisgonelle  |  January 22, 2010 at 2:01 am

    Thanks for having the courage and integrity to share your struggles. I can resonate with a lot of what you’ve said, about depression and faith.

    What ultimately brought me out of the shadow was my decision to trust God’s word no matter what I felt. The Jewish response to questions of faith and practice is “It is written”. God does not change (I know this is essentially contradictory to LDS theology, viz-a-vis eternal progression) and so both He and His word, by extension, are reliable.

    At first it felt like intellectual and emotional suicide.

    I found that if I measured my standing with God by comparing how I thought I was doing with where I used to be, I would despair: I would always find some way in which I fell short.

    But even if I thought I was going well, I would still doubt that I had truly been adopted into His family, because God’s standard is ‘be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.’ That drives me to despair that I could ever be good enough but that’s what it’s meant to do I think; so we rely entirely on Christ’s death in our stead, not on how good we are.

    And that takes an impossible weight of my soul.

    Reply
    • 2. Provo LDS Girl  |  January 22, 2010 at 10:45 am

      Wait, what do you mean that in LDS theology we believe that God changes? We undoubtedly do believe that as in all scripture he is the same yesterday, today and forever. I never said that we or I don’t believe that, so I’m not sure where you got that from. But that’s I’m sure a long heated debate that I really don’t want to get into, so you don’t have to answer. ;)

      You’re absolutely right about measuring ourselves against anything. To compare to anything – even yourself is a sin in God’s eyes, as I’m sure you know. ;) “Judge Not less ye be judged”.. That’s the most amazing thing about asking God where you stand and knowing that no matter what he still loves you. “Ask and you shall receive, seek and ye shall find.” We are all God’s Children. No matter what. Rich, poor, bond or free. Male or female, old or young. The sinner or the saint. We are all the spirit children of God. We have been brought to this earth to be tested and tried, to prove ourselves worthy that in that appointed day that we may leave this life, we may return to him. We are only made perfect through the sacrifice of His son. An infinite atonement, to prove even more that our Father in Heaven loves us. He’s given us MANY opportunities to return home. It is our choice that leads us home.

      Reply
  • 3. Kathi  |  February 5, 2010 at 12:00 am

    Thank you for sharing your painful story. My daughter is going through exactly what you are. She is struggling right now to remember what the spirit felt like and I pray she holds on this time as you did. I have to tell you, being that your stories are so much alike, you must believe that the trauma you delt with at 15 (my daughter’s trauma was at 4), caused a tremendous amount of pain for you, thus contributed to your bad choices. I am sure in therapy you are learning to work through that (I hope…if not, get a new therapist). The failings you went through are due to the pain inside….and Heavenly Father knows that and He knows your heart. He loves you. I pray that you find healing inside. I pray the same for my daughter. We have gone through 3 suicide attempts in the past few months, but this is the first time I actually have hope. Your story gives me even more hope that she will feel the spirit fully once again.
    One thing…you will come out of this with a strength and knowledge that will help others…remember that ;o)

    Reply
  • 4. Kathi  |  February 5, 2010 at 12:06 am

    I just looked at your “about me”. You are close to my daughter’s age. She is 23.
    Oh, and I just began blogging…check out my blog if you’d like.
    http://www.thoughtblossoms.wordpress.com

    Reply
  • 5. Edde  |  March 1, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    Thank you for sharing that… I have gone through similar struggles. In fact, my mom is Kathi, the one who posted the comments above. Right now I am working through therapy, and starting to come back to the gospel after being inactive for a while. I’ve actually gone back and forth quite a bit between activity and inactivity, belief and disbelief. Your story gives me hope… :)

    Reply
    • 6. Provo LDS Girl  |  March 1, 2010 at 6:58 pm

      Hi Edde, thanks for reading. I’m glad it gives you hope. It’s taken me many “redo”s to get to where I am now. The gospel is the biggest “redo” button available and is all about God loving imperfect people. Which, in my book – is a gospel I want to follow and a God I want to love. :) I’ll be posting more soon, so keep watching. I’ll be watching your blogs too. ;)

      Reply
  • 7. Edde  |  March 1, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    P.S. I actually have two blogs:
    http://fallforward.wordpress.com (main blog)
    http://refinebyfire.wordpress.com (spiritual, more LDS-focused blog)

    Reply
  • 8. Heather  |  March 2, 2010 at 1:33 am

    I want to send you hugs and best wishes on your journey down this difficult road.
    Your post included some of the reasons I have a problem with the LDS faith and doctrine. Please do not pass me off as an ill educated hater. I’m a nice Christian! SInful and human, but I try to remember to act in a God pleasing manner! I’ve spent basically my entire life researching religions. I’ve studied them all. I know a LOT about Mormonism. Actual doctrine, not rumors. I know my facts.

    That said, I just want you to know – because for some reason I feel like I need to say this – there is a God. He knows you. He knows you’re imperfect, we all are. He loves you unconditionally. He knows your heart better than you do. He understands the pain and suffering and longs to comfort His Children that have experienced pain. As a Christian, I feel so strongly that it is no place for ANY church to stand between you and God. There are certain aspects of your story that bother me. Mention of “disfellowship” and excomminication, being denied entrance to the temples. In actuality, our God says “Come as you are.” Everyone has the same access to the love He offers. You should never, for any reason, be denied this.

    I belong to a Christian church that would never take away rights, deny me, or make me feel shameful for being HUMAN. While it encourages participation, fellowship, and moral behavior – it is also accepted that we’re all just sinful humans that God loves. Tithing is not demanded, certain actions are not required. There’s a freedom I’d love for you to experience. My heart hurt reading this post and I just want you to know – you have every right to seek God, and He’s hoping you do. No one should deny you access. NO ONE.

    If you have any questions about this loving God I know so well, on a personal basis, and who would never stand for a church coming between me & Him or have me feel too unworthy – by all means email me.

    Regardless, I hope you find the “peace that passes understanding”.
    :-)

    Reply
  • 9. Kathi  |  March 2, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    Heather,
    I have to respond to your comments. As a Christian, do you follow the Bible? To be sure, it is without a doubt that the Book of Mormon holds a fullness of truth and I could help things be much clearer regarding this, but for the sake of your argument, I will only quote from the Bible.

    You say that it is “no place for ANY church to stand between you and God.” First, let me say, that calling someone to repentance is not standing between the person and God…quite the opposite. It is bringing them back into the presence of God. However, I’d like to point out that the Church that Jesus Christ established while upon the earth through his Apostles had requirements concerning sin and the Church.

    2 John 8-10 says,
    “Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. (may I interject here that we stand in need to watch ourselves that we don’t lose our reward?)
    “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God….
    “If there come any unto you (the church)…receive him not into your house…”

    1 Corinthians chapter 5 says that the Church cannot fellowship sinners. And in chapter 9 verse 27 Paul says …”But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means…I myself should be a castaway.”

    Then he talks about taking the sacrament:

    1 Cor 11: 27 “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”
    Worthiness is obviously a requirement. How does one become worthy? Well, let’s look at Paul. In order for him to be converted, it was required of him to repent and be baptized before he could carry out the work of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)

    Further, let’s see how the Church was run during the Bible times….
    Romans 13 verses1-3 are about being subject to God’s ordained leaders…verse 4…”For he is the minister(servant) of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil…”
    Verse 5… “Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. (I find this line interesting for it is true that confessing sins before the Bishop, and taking the steps necessary for repentance helps a person’s conscience.) For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.”

    Also, in1 Corinthians 4:1,2 “Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers (ordained servants), and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards that a man be found faithful.”

    In 2 Corinthians chapter 7
    Paul, leading the saints, rejoiced that the words he said (as their ordained minister) brought them to godly sorrow and repentance. Verse ll thru 16 is about clearing themselves and becoming obedient to truth.

    1 Timothy chapter 3 sets forth the qualifications for a bishop to rule over his congregation. What does rule mean? “Govern as to the regulations prescribed by religion under which its members must abide.” Why would there be a need for a Bishop then, if we as members are not accountable to live by the word of truth? Verse 15…”that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

    How is it that in 1 Timothy chapter 5, the word regarding someone who has sinned… verse 20 “…them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things…”

    All that being said, perhaps you don’t fully understand that if the Lord calls us to repentance, through His servants, it is because He loves us and wants us to come to Him and partake of His mercy. Yes, He says “Come Unto Me”. I am not sure where He says, “Come as you are” with no other qualifications.

    If you notice when John the Baptist preached, he said, “Repent ye:” Many went out and were baptized, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to be baptized, he said “Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:… every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”
    We may ALL come unto the Lord…no doubt, but letting go of our sins is required. As stated above, Christ’s church was organized as such to aid the sinner, to lead him in the ways of truth, to help him to bring forth fruits meet for repentance.

    Just thought I’d share that with you.

    Kathi

    Reply
  • 10. Heather  |  March 2, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    Hi Kathi,

    Thanks for your reply. I’m going to quote you here, but throw in my two cents regarding my study and understanding of the Bible:

    “You say that it is “no place for ANY church to stand between you and God.” First, let me say, that calling someone to repentance is not standing between the person and God…quite the opposite. It is bringing them back into the presence of God. However, I’d like to point out that the Church that Jesus Christ established while upon the earth through his Apostles had requirements concerning sin and the Church.”

    The difference between what you are saying and Marie’s situation I believe lies in the difference between “stumbling” and “living in sin”. Reading her experience, I would say Marie has been stumbling. She obviously is striving to follow Christ’s example – but like all humans – she has failed. There is a distinct difference between a situation like this and a life of sin, which I agree would require religious leaders to intervene and with “gentleness and love” (as the Bible says) lead them back to the truth and help them see the error in their ways. It hurts me to hear Marie’s experience, she was obviously troubled, and she sought help, but she was clearly punished in sorts by the church for this.

    “2 John 8-10 says,
    “Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. (may I interject here that we stand in need to watch ourselves that we don’t lose our reward?)
    “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God….
    “If there come any unto you (the church)…receive him not into your house…””

    Kathi, I won’t quote this entire passage but you must read Romans 11:11-24 in response to your statement: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11%3A11-24&version=NIV

    It is clear here that God is defining a distinction between stumbling and falling away from the faith. My high school Bible teacher explained this wonderfully one day. “We all fall short of the Glory of God. You can be tempted to steal, steal, repent, and gain forgiveness – this entire time you have not left the Kingdom of God. But you can also fall into a lifestyle of stealing. You can become a THEIF, continuing the sin despite the forgiveness God offers.” I believe churches need to recognize this difference. Marie here did not fall away, she stumbled. She sought God afterward and tried to correct the behavior. So in this case, I most certainly have a problem with her being denied access to any level of the church. God gives forgiveness freely to those who repent.

    “1 Corinthians chapter 5 says that the Church cannot fellowship sinners. And in chapter 9 verse 27 Paul says …”But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means…I myself should be a castaway.”

    Again, Paul is clearly referring here to unbelievers who are engaged in LIVES OF SIN. Not a Child of God, saved by grace and faith, who has stumbled.

    “1 Cor 11: 27 “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”
    Worthiness is obviously a requirement. How does one become worthy? Well, let’s look at Paul. In order for him to be converted, it was required of him to repent and be baptized before he could carry out the work of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)”

    Kathi – The Bible is most safely interpreted using the Bible. Let scripture interpret scripture. I believe you are misunderstanding the message, as Luke 17:10 clearly states that we are ALL unworthy:
    Luke 17:10 (New International Version)
    So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ ”

    Romans 3:23 also says “for all fall short of the glory of God.”

    The message in the Bible is that, we are ALL sinners. But focus on God, his love for us, and the truth of Christ and the Holy Spirit within us will act as a proxy for our sinning souls and thus we are saved. Seek Him, you will find Him. BUT we are ALL unworthy.

    “Further, let’s see how the Church was run during the Bible times….
    Romans 13 verses1-3 are about being subject to God’s ordained leaders…verse 4…”For he is the minister(servant) of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil…””
    Verse 5… “Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. (I find this line interesting for it is true that confessing sins before the Bishop, and taking the steps necessary for repentance helps a person’s conscience.) For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.””

    Again, I believe this is referring to a life in sin, which clearly cannot be Christ centered. We all stumble and sin, yes, but keep trying.

    For example Proverbvs 24:16 states:

    16For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

    17Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:

    18Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

    These are some points I needed to address. I have to run an errand now but I’ll be back to address the rest of the points you are addressing!

    Cheers,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 11. Kathi  |  March 2, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    Heather,
    We can get into a battle of scriptures and you can choose to interpret them how you please, but ALL are called to repent….all of us.

    You see it as a punishment…clearly you don’t understand. Is it a punishment to be required to repent of one’s sins to enter the Kingdom of God, or is it a blessing…for no unclean thing can enter the presence of the Lord, so he blesses us with the opportunity to believe on His name and repent and be baptized. He died for us. He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. We are all covered unconditionally as it pertains to the fall of Adam. Because of Christ’s atonement, we shall all rise from the dead with immortal bodies. (1 Cor 15:22) “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

    The atonement is conditional though, as it pertains to each individual’s sins…the requirements being (throughout the scriptures) faith in Jesus Christ, repentance and obedience to the Gospel. When we transgress, we incur the penalty of spiritual death, which is alienation from God. The atonement redeems us from the Fall of Adam and makes us all answerable for how we live our life. As we repent and return to faith and obedience, we return into the presence of our God. The atonement gives us that opportunity.

    So what a blessing it is that we have been given the opportunity to repent when we have stumbled.

    Should baptism and repentance be only for those “living a life of sin” but not for those “stumbling in sin”. If so, then why are ALL called to repent and be baptized?

    As far as the Temple is concerned…do a study of temples. Temples have always been Holy sanctuaries in which sacred ceremonies and ordinances have been performed. Whenever there have been faithful people of the Lord, there has always been a temple. You will also find that because of the sacredness of these temples, not everyone was able to enter. Nothing new there. So why act as though the requirement to be faithful unto repentance (worthy) in order to enter the Holiest place on earth is a punishment?
    We make covenants with the Lord in the temple. If those covenants are broken, even in stumbling, how blessed we are to go through the repentance process to regain entrance and renew those covenants.

    Provogirl’s stumbling, I believe, is due to circumstances and pain that created psychological issues. The Lord knows her pain. This is pain that many today have yet to grasp and realize the impact it has on the brain. Fortunately, we are becoming more and more educated about this. Though there may be a Bishop who may not have experience with this type of thing and his human opinions may get in the way, the Lord always comes through to right it. The Lord’s servants are in no way perfect (you can see that throughout the Bible, if they were, then why are we as women today not living by the rule that we are to keep silent, or cannot have short hair, or stoned to death…)
    It can be unfortunate, but sometimes we suffer so that others may learn. That is pretty biblical as well.
    All in all, I don’t see a need for you to address anything else. The point is, you are trying to tell these young women that they are suffering at the hands of the Church. This is just not true.

    They will be blessed. Their obedience to the Gospel (which the scriptures point out is necessary) will enable them to walk hand in hand with the Lord in righteousness. They have had hard things in their lives, and the Lord knows that. Much will be gained for them as they forge forward in Faith, believing that the Lord knows their hearts and knows what they each need personally to overcome their pain. What I have seen in my own life, is that the Lord recognizes when things are withheld that shouldn’t be and he fixes it. Sometimes he waits a bit to test our faith.

    Many others will be blessed as well because of the path they are on right now, including those who need to become more aware of the struggles that come psychologically when sexual abuse happens in one’s life. Eyes will be opened to what is needed to overcome the pain they feel.

    For you to cause more pain by bashing their beliefs is actually very cruel. So I would say, if you have compassion, leave it be.

    Thanks,
    Kathi

    Reply
  • 12. Heather  |  March 2, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    Kathi,

    Again thanks for your reply.

    Marie,
    My message here is that I want you to know – according to the Bible (“For the word of God is living and active.” Hebrews 4:12) you are saved regardless of your sins, through grace alone. My church stands firm, love God and acknowledge Christ as your savior. What Kathi says, “The atonement is conditional though, as it pertains to each individual’s sins…the requirements being (throughout the scriptures) faith in Jesus Christ, repentance and obedience to the Gospel.”

    This is incorrect. God’s love and grace is unconditional and obedience to the Gospel is NOT requried (NO ONE can live up to those standards except Christ!):

    But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved (Ephesians 2:4-5).

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).

    There is no temple I am not allowed in with my faith, I am free and welcome to come and go in my house of worship.

    My heart breaks for you that you faced suicidal thoughts based on your pain! God is calling, and He is saying, “”Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” Matthew 11:28.

    I just want you to know. You are loved as you are. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.”
    1 John 2:1

    We ALL stumble. We are made worthy for eternal life not by our own works and deads but by Christ’s blood. Period.

    Blessings,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 13. Kathi  |  March 2, 2010 at 9:19 pm

    The blood of Christ made it possible for us to come to Him. Without Him, we could do nothing to save ourselves…however, he expects us to…

    James 1:22-25

    “But be ye does of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own sleves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”

    2 John 1 :6,9
    “And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    3 John 1:11
    “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hat not seen God.”

    Titus: 2:7
    “In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity and sincerity”

    Titus 2:12-14
    “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world;
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

    Titus 3:8
    “This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Heather, the scriptures teach throughout that we are to obey the commandments, live obediently, being doers not just hearers. (read Romans 2:6-13)
    Ephesians 4: 11-14
    “And he gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ;
    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    That we henceforth be not more children, tossed to and fro…”

    After just the few scriptures I have put hear, how can you even reconcile what you have said?

    Kathi

    Reply
  • 14. Heather  |  March 2, 2010 at 11:38 pm

    Kathi,

    Thank you for your response! You quoted many great verses here, however, I feel the meaning of these is confusing because you have not quoted these passages in their complete contexts. It is important to read surrounding verses. I think you might be surprised at some of these!

    You quoted James 1:22-25

    Pay attention to the last part “but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” This is not saying the deed is saving (providing justification) for a person. When someone abides by God’s laws (which is always inspired by the Holy Spirit within them, Gal 5:22-23) this is God pleasing, and God blesses that person. Thus, this verse you are quoting is not referring to justification by faith & works, but merely stating that it pleases God, who blesses us in return.

    We know from Galatians 5:23 and John 15:4-5 that any good we do and laws we follow is not because of US but because the Holy Spirit dwells within the believer. Also remember this verse:
    “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law,” Rom. 3:28.

    2 John 1 :6,9
    “And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    Kathi, on these verses from 2 John, again I would like to point out these verses are telling us that those who continually fall and sin, who clearly are not “abiding” in doctrine do not have the Holy Spirit within them – and thus not faith. We know that God wants us to be obedient, but it does not make or break our faith. Remember Proverbs 24:16 “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.” We all fall – but when we have the Holy Spirit, we are divinely inspired to “rise up again”.

    3 John 1:11
    “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hat not seen God.”

    3 John 1 needs to be read in it’s entirety. John is specifically writing a letter regarding Diotrephes and pagans. This is not a reference to justification, but John is making the point that a blatantly sinful lifestyle is indicative that the Holy Spirit does not dwell within a person, and thus they are lacking the faith in grace that saves.

    Titus: 2:7
    “In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity and sincerity” – you’re missing the end of this verse!!!

    Kathi, the REST of verse 7 and 8 in this chapter of Titus says, “so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.” Again, the message here is NOT justification by works but rather God telling us to be a good example so that unbelievers are not turned off by Christians and left with a bad taste in their mouths.

    Titus 2:12-14
    “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world;
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

    Kathi, the verse preceding this passage you quoted, verse 11 states: “11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” AGAIN, clearly God is saying that salvation is via grace. Abiding God’s law comes with the territory, even though we all fall and “rise up again” but there is no implication here that abding God’s law is what saves us. Remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Clearly he lived a life of sin, but in those last moments he saw Christ for the savior he is and was saved.

    Titus 3:8
    “This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    THIS passage is preceded by: “5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.”

    The verse before the one you did quote says “he saved us NOT BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUS THINGS WE HAVE DONE” (Notice, we are already saved, now God wants us to be good examples and loving towards others so that they might be inspired – this however, is not required because we are already saved – it is absolutely evidence of the Holy Spirit within us.)

    Dear Kathi, when you really read these verses in CONTEXT, their true meaning comes forth. It is by GRACE we are saved. When one is saved through their faith in Christ, that person understands the huge sacrifice both God and His Son made for us, naturally we are inspired by the Spirit to be followers of Christs teachings. This however, does NOT mean our salvation relies on us keeping the law. The saving of our souls has ALREADY happened.

    So Marie, my message to you here by pointing out the entire meaning of such passages is that you can ALWAYS pick back up and start fresh. Jesus’s blood continually washes away our sins. Naturally we are inspired as Christians to live in a God pleasing manner, and should absolutely be conscientious of our actions, but it is NOT a factor in our salvation. Christ is the only one who ever lived a perfect life.

    Blessings,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 15. Kathi  |  March 3, 2010 at 12:18 am

    Heather,
    You purposely confuse my point to come across as though you are correct. I did not say that it is our works that save us. I simply said that we are expected to be doers.
    I was proving you wrong in saying that obedience to the Gospel is not required. It is not required to be resurrected. All will be resurrected and then will be judged. What do you think they will be judged by? …
    This is a useless arguement. We agree that all may be cleansed by Christ’s atoning blood. No one is in disagreement with that. All may be made new again. My argument with you is that the Lord requires us to repent. Perhaps your version of repentance is different.
    Kathi

    Reply
  • 16. Heather  |  March 3, 2010 at 12:44 am

    Kathi,

    To answer your question, I believe we will be judged the following way: since our souls are dead to sin, the Holy Spirit living inside of us through faith and grace will be a proxy. Christ’s perfection replaces the huge gaping hole sin leaves in our hearts. Our souls are dead in sin, yet the Spirit living inside of us will make it possible for us to live with God. Christ died for us, and on judgment day I will stand before God a sinner, but save through the grace freely offered – the Holy Spirit will be within me.

    On repentance: Repentance means first of all, to acknowledge our sins, to be truly sorry for them. This “godly sorrow” comes from the Holy Spirit convicting us with God’s law.

    It comes naturally with true faith (meaning you are already saved) that sorrow for your sins follows.

    I was sincerely not trying to confuse your point, but I did feel your point was being supported by verses taken out of context. I am also aware that the LDS church teaches that salvation comes from faith AND works. As I pointed out in my previous comment, this is not Biblical. We are saved through grace by faith alone. Thanks to Jesus. Never with thanks to ourselves for doing “good”. The good, comes afterward – hence a “fruit of the Spirit”. Once you’re saved, you are saved – whether you sin again or not. Falling away from the trust in Christ as savior is what can damn us. Not sinning.

    The message I am trying to convey to Marie here, is that I feel the LDS religion is poorly and falsely representing my God by implying that she is unworthy in anyway due to her sins and thus not allowed certain levels of closeness (such as a temple recommend). In reality, the Bible makes it clear that those with true faith WILL continue to stumble, but will also get up and keep trying to walk like Christ because we are naturally inspired by the Spirit. I feel for her mental state and the obvious guilt and depression and fear she feels that I think is brought on by the LDS church, but NOT in concurrence with God’s message in the Bible. I feel she needs to know, this is evidence that the LDS church is not representing the true God, because these practices are not Biblical. She has already been offered forgiveness and love from God, she does not need to prove her worthiness to the LDS church.

    Blessings,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 17. Kathi  |  March 3, 2010 at 10:26 am

    Debates with peope like you go absolutely no where because you continue to base your argument on what you want the argument to be instead of what it is really about.

    I did not take any verses out of context because I was not supporting the premise you insist I was supporting. I was pointing out to you that Christ expects us to be “doers”. You said, and again I will repeat it…that we are not required to obey the gospel. I answered to you that to be resurrected, no one has to do anything because of the atonement. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ, all shall be made alive.”
    However, again, I will repeat that throughout the scriptures Jesus Christ calls on us to follow Him, to do as He did, and to be doers of the word. He calls on us to repent and keep his commandments.
    Also, your concept of judgement in in err. Just read Revelation 20:12-13
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    What we teach is Biblical. To be quite honest, your words are not backed up by scripture….only by written creeds of man. Your arguments are the same continually as a broken record…even when the premise is different.

    The LDS Church represents God in a loving way. Marie knows that because of the atoning blood of our Savior, her sins will be forgiven. Thankfully, I am sure she sees her Father in Heaven and her Savior Jesus Christ as all knowing and able to know her heart. Thankfully, also, we are taught that through the Holy Spirit, all things will be made manifest. She will know she is forgiven.
    I won’t even bother to comment on your insensitive statement as to why she is depressed. Her pain stems from sexual abuse. To blame it on the Church shows how little you know about the subject anyway. You have gone against what the scriptures teach about us judging one another….a very unchristian behavior.
    For everyone’s sake, I will not further this conversation. It will just continue to go in circles based on what you have shown so far.
    Kathi

    Reply
  • 18. Heather  |  March 3, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Kathi,
    Your quote: “You said, and again I will repeat it…that we are not required to obey the gospel.”

    Yes this is true – we are not required to do good works to enter heaven. But the fruits of the Spirit are a natural consequence of our faith.

    That quote from Revelation is talking about “the dead”, meaning unbelievers. They are dead in their sins, not saved by Christ – so yes, without faith they ARE judged on their sins. They were not washed away because they rejected the truth that is Christ.

    You also said, “Debates with peope like you go absolutely no where because you continue to base your argument on what you want the argument to be instead of what it is really about.”

    I did not post my first comment here to start a debate, I was offering support and truth to Marie. I am not looking to fight, but I will defend my God’s TRUE teachings. I am not against Mormons, I am against false doctrine.

    You say, “what we teach is Biblical”. But my research proves otherwise. For example, there is nothing Biblical about LDS teachings on:

    * Jesus visiting America
    * Satan & Jesus being brothers
    * people of darker skin being more sinful
    * people being able to become gods
    * remaining married after death
    * baptism & works being required for salvation
    and this is only a few. Unfortunately there are seemingly countless LDS teachings that have no true Biblical backup when the word of God is sincerely and critically studied.

    My issue is not with Mormons, you are a fellow Child of God & loved by Him who offers us grace. The LDS doctrine, however, I take issue with. I do not wish you offense, and I realize you take your faith personally. I also think it is important, however, for everyone to take a critical look at what they believe. How else do we know we seek God in truth?

    I also take issue with the emotional toll LDS practices take on those struggling with worldly downfalls – like Marie here. This girl was suicidal! This is serious! And she is distraught over the way she has been denied the temple recommend and “not feeling the spirit”.

    Statistics back me up on my belief that the LDS church is false and emotionally torments it’s members: http://www.lifeafter.org/mormonsuicide.asp
    70% of Utah is Mormon. And the use of antidepressants in that state is shocking!

    That does not speak well to the LDS church, does it? I recently also read a Mormon comment on another blog where this Mormon stated she was shocked at how many angry ex-Mormons she knew, where as the ex-Christians she knew did not exhibit the same anger and resentment towards their former religion. Could this be that in hindsight, people see how they were controlled and manipulated by these false teachings?

    Reading this blog, I felt it was obvious to me Marie here was being manipulated as well. I take issue with this, on behalf of the Gospel I know is true.

    I say “controlled”, because it certainly feels wrong to me the level of interaction the LDS church has in one’s personal life. My specific Christian church has not changed it’s core beliefs in it’s hundreds of years of existence. Mormonism has changed many core aspects (polygamy, Curse of Cain, Christianity being an apostasy, etc). This is suspect as well, is it not? We have on tape Hinkley, who was supposedly a prophet & revelator of the LDS church saying “I don’t know.” When confronted on why black people weren’t allowed the priesthood until 1978. This was the prophet? All he could say was, “I don’t know.” when his religion drastically changed a core belief???

    I also look at my religion in contrast with the LDS church, I am not require to tithe any certain amount, but give freely what my heart is content to. I am not denied access to anything depending on my moral performance (like Marie here) unless I was to completely leave the faith. No home teachers visit my home, although fellowship is freely practiced and Bible studies can be attended, support is always readily available to me. No suicidal or depression statistics have been linked to my faith. I know people who have left my church, and they are treated with kindness, love & respect and welcome back at any service. I am also encouraged to actively seek the truth. LDS church tells it’s members not to read material that is not “faith promoting”. Do you see how that COULD be problematic IF the LDS faith is false as I believe it to be? You are told not to question. This is a problem, how are you to grow in your faith on your own with God if you are not to explore truth and take a critical look at the most important beliefs?

    There is a stark difference in behavior regarding the Christian denominations and the LDS church. Something is wrong here.

    I am not against you, Marie or Kathi, I am for you! God is for you! I am concerned and worried. I worry, through my study of truth, that you have been lied to. It makes me angry on your behalf, literally. But not angry, hateful, or negative towards YOU. I wish you nothing but the same peace and love I have received.

    If you are right and I am wrong, according the LDS beliefs I will go to hell until I repent, and then will be welcomed into heaven with you, albeit a lower “level” with not as many rewards. If I am right about my doubts on your faith and LDS is wrong, the consequence is that you will be denied existence with God forever, because the lie that is LDS will prevent you from partaking in the grace God freely offers. Please, just think deeply on this. It is important to take a long hard, critical look at what your church REALLY teaches.

    Thank you for discussing this so deeply with me. I understand you want to give it a rest and that this feels like it’s going in circles. My intent is only to show Marie here that her depression and shame is in vain – stumbling or not – grace and love is freely offered! Don’t let anyone on earth hold you back from the grace God offers.

    Blessings on your day,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 19. Kathi  |  March 3, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    Lifeafter.org is just another anti-mormon effort to destroy peoples faith. Their statistics are not valid. I won’t even waste my time addressing that website here. Their motives are known all over.

    Our Church teaches the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Your efforts here are in vain, Heather. You have been deceived and my prayers will be with you.

    Kathi

    Reply
  • 20. Heather  |  March 3, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    Kathi -
    Is CBS out to destroy people’s faith too?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/03/eveningnews/main510918.shtml

    And all the other countless references?

    Also, if you are going to make claims that I have “been deceived” I would appreciate a specific reference to how so that I can study your point and address such a statement. Can you please tell me specifically, how have I been deceived?

    One more question, if your church teaches the truth, why are you discouraged from any literature that is not “faith promoting”? If your church teaches truth, there should be no problem with you taking a critical look at it. Faith comes from God, it’s strong enough to handle some tough questions!

    Sincerely,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 21. Kathi  |  March 3, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    First, I HAVE taken a critical look. All it did was strengthen my Faith. I KNOW the LDS teach the true Gospel. Anyone has the ability to look at our faith critically. Those who I associate with actually do, and come away even stronger. I know that quote you will pull up about “faith promoting”. Frankly, for some people, why waste precious time with critics as I have done with you? Perhaps the counsel is actually wise ;o)

    I spent a long time as a moderater on a board with members and critics. What I find is what I have found with you….the same attacks, the same circles, and the same generic answers without clearly addressing the things you can’t reconcile with your beliefs. If you look back, you will see that you didn’t answer some very important points.

    Second, studies like you linked to are never conclusive. To answer questions like: have you had one depressed day in the past year?, have you had one depressed episode in the past year?, etc…most people can answer yes. Perhaps what we can conclude in this study is that Mormons are the most honest people…lol.

    Something you should note right from the beginning. In many cases depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain. There are so many causes to factor into depression that to link it to our view of the Atonement is ridiculous. It would be just as silly to say that because a rooster crows at sunrise, it must be then that the sun only rises because a rooster crowed….;o)

    You are deceived by thinking that our beliefs are not Biblical. They are and I can give you plenty of resources, but you would not look at them except through your anti-mormon eyes so it’s pointless.

    In the beginning, you spoke with love and compassion. Your sincerity is beginning to crumble as you throw things out like your last comment. It only shows your true agenda.

    BTW, you said:
    “If you are right and I am wrong, according the LDS beliefs I will go to hell until I repent, and then will be welcomed into heaven with you, albeit a lower “level” with not as many rewards. If I am right about my doubts on your faith and LDS is wrong, the consequence is that you will be denied existence with God forever, because the lie that is LDS will prevent you from partaking in the grace God freely offers. Please, just think deeply on this. It is important to take a long hard, critical look at what your church REALLY teaches.”

    It seems that we teach that Heavenly Father is a much more loving God than you make him out to be. We don’t teach that you would go to hell (so much for your education about the LDS Faith). Actually, you will be given the opportunity to accept the Gospel. Sad that you teach that we Mormons will go to hell and never be able to partake of His grace….but wait, I’m confused…does that mean that we will be judged by our works? Isn’t that a contradiction?….ah, don’t bother answering that….I’m done.

    Check out my blog sometime, it has some wonderful links to sites that will help you understand what we believe. It’s a beautiful plan that our Father in Heaven set forth.

    Kathi

    Reply
  • 22. Heather  |  March 3, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    Kathi –

    According to Mormon sources, such as this website:
    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/heaven_only.htm

    LDS *does* believe you can go to hell but be offered the chance to repent.

    Second, I have to correct your statement: “It seems that we teach that Heavenly Father is a much more loving God than you make him out to be. We don’t teach that you would go to hell”

    Yes Christians do believe unbelievers go to hell. If you study the Bible – this is NOT punishment from God for being “bad”. This is because if someone does not accept the gift of God’s grace, there is no Holy Spirit within them to act as a proxy for their dead soul on judgment day. The Bible makes it very clear God wants ALL to be saved, but those still even (unbelievers who did not have the Holy Spirit within them) after death can only go to hell. The Bible also makes us aware that God created hell for demons – for fallen angels – NOT for us. Thus your claim that the Christian God is not as loving is not true.

    Third, my intent and “agenda” with commenting here has never been to “criticize” but to extend the loving truth of God towards Marie. It is never my intention to personally attack you, however, when you chimed in I did feel the need to defend my faith and truth. I will continue to do so.

    It is interesting that you say, “.the same attacks, the same circles, and the same generic answers without clearly addressing the things you can’t reconcile with your beliefs. If you look back, you will see that you didn’t answer some very important points.” as I feel the same way about your rebuttals. I think it is human nature to feel frustrated when you feel like a good point isn’t getting through to someone. There’s one thing we can agree on! :-)

    Finally, I would like to respectfully request that you do not call me an “anti-mormon”. I find this phrase offensive as I feel the “anti-ANYPERSON” label implies that I hate someone. I do not. I’ve tried to make it clear here, and would like to reiterate that I have NO feelings of passion towards Mormons other than that they are people like me. Children of God. LDS doctrine is what I have a problem with here, and how through my studies and research it has proven to be unBiblical and not reliable.

    Thank you for the invite to your blog, I have already visited it. Clearly you are passionate about your beliefs in the LDS church and I can respect that, despite my strong beliefs that your religion is false.

    In Peace,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 23. Kathi  |  March 3, 2010 at 9:33 pm

    To be exact, it is called spirit prison (sometimes also referred to as a hell, “a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85). ”

    Hell “is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
    Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).”
    (www.lds.org)
    BTW, Lightplanet is a wonderful site, though not an official Church site. That was a beautifully explained page. Thanks for the link!
    Also, Heather, I do believe that you had good intentions. What makes it agenda-like and anti-mormonish are your phrases such as, ” the LDS religion is poorly and falsely representing my God,”"the LDS church is not representing the true God,” “the lie that is LDS,”and “your religion is false”. These comments are ones that you would never hear us say back to you. What we would say is, “Heavenly Father loves you. You have some truth, come and learn more of what your Heavenly Father wants you to know…come partake of the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
    My desire to chime in is out of compassion for Marie and for others watching this blog, who are struggling with more than enough from issues unrelated to their Faith, but truly affecting every aspect of their lives including their faith. To have you come in and tear down the one thing that can actually give them the strength to heal was just too much for me to let slide.
    Kathi

    Reply
  • 24. Heather  |  March 3, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    Thanks Kathi,
    You said,
    “Also, Heather, I do believe that you had good intentions. What makes it agenda-like and anti-mormonish are your phrases such as, ” the LDS religion is poorly and falsely representing my God,””the LDS church is not representing the true God,” “the lie that is LDS,”and “your religion is false”.

    I do take it very seriously that the LDS church claims to be “Christian” and following the same Biblical teachings as simple Christianity does – but then take the truth that is Christ & the Bible and twist and, in my opinion pervert, the TRUTH. There is MUCH LDS doctrine that is not Biblical which I have already mentioned (although I will gladly show inconsistencies with this faith again if you would like my quotes & references). The Bible warns us many MANY times about false doctrine and false prophets who might attempt to add to the Bible and change it. Considering that description – the LDS church has done exactly that.

    Also you said, “These comments are ones that you would never hear us say back to you. What we would say is, “Heavenly Father loves you. You have some truth, come and learn more of what your Heavenly Father wants you to know…come partake of the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.””

    You say this, however I seem to be able to quote YOU saying:
    “You are deceived” (not, “you have some truth”)
    and
    “You purposely confuse my point…
    I was proving you wrong” (#15)
    and
    “you would not look at them except through your anti-mormon eyes so it’s pointless.” (not, ” come and learn more of what your Heavenly Father wants you to know”)

    Seemingly, by your own standards, you are proving your own comments to have agenda and anti qualities.

    When it comes to false doctrine, I will NOT sugarcoat. I will speak the truth in love and I am commanded to be loving to YOU and all of my neighbors, but NOT towards religions I find false. The Bible refers to itself as “sharper than a double edged sword” – there’s nothing nicey-nice about that is there? The message of the Bible is God’s love, but it also sends the message: Don’t mess with this truth!
    It’s more of a no-BS approach.

    Also, if you do go back and read my comments, you will find many kind things I said towards you and Marie, specifically regarding the type of God I have – and that you come unworthy and you will stay unworthy as you are – but still come. Because Christ WAS worthy. For us.

    Amen,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 25. Heather  |  March 4, 2010 at 1:01 am

    From Ephesians 6:

    10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

    19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

    (THIS is why, when facing doctrinal issues, Christians sometimes will not back down from the debate. I love my neighbor, but against false doctrine I’m taking up that sword and ready for a fight for truth.)

    Reply
  • 26. Kathi  |  March 4, 2010 at 1:26 am

    LDS are Christian. I wish you the best in the path you are on. I hope someday you come to realize we are not teaching false doctrine, but truth.

    Kathi

    Reply
  • 27. Heather  |  March 4, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    Kathi -

    It is very interesting to me that Mormons protest so vehemently about being “Christians” when their founding fathers made their opinions of Christianity quite clear in the following ways:

    A common accusation made by Mormons against Christians who challenge the claims of the LDS Church, is to accuse them of being unchristian. To many Latter-day Saints, any critical inquiry of their faith is seen as an act of hateful bigotry.

    The fact is, any effort to demonstrate that Mormon doctrine is unbiblical is not an attack, but merely a case of defending the Christian faith. You see, it was Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter-day Saint movement, who made the first assault by claiming that all of Christianity was an abomination in God’s sight. To say the Mormon Church has never made an attempt to discredit the Christian faith and what it stands for is utterly false.

    Mormonism’s attack on Christianity began before the LDS Church was officially organized. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter-day Saint movement, claimed that when he was but a young boy there as an “unusual excitement on the subject of religion” in the area where he lived. He stated that the churches involved were the Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches. Because the young Smith was not sure as to which church he should join, he decided to go to some nearby woods (known today by Mormons as the “sacred grove”) and pray about the matter. Little did anyone realize that one of the most vicious assaults on biblical Christianity would be launched when this teen-age boy would return out of those woods.

    Smith claimed that while he was praying in the grove he had been visited by both God the Father and Jesus Christ. When he asked these personages which church he should join, he claimed he was told to join none of them, “for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

    The first offensive was thus made. This feeling would later spread among all the Mormon church authorities and be instilled into as many church members as would accept it.

    2nd LDS President Brigham Young – “when the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness” (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

    “The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God” (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

    “With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world” (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

    “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth” (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

    The “Brother Taylor” Young refers to is John Taylor, who after Brigham’s death in 1877, became the third president of the LDS Church. Here are some of his feelings toward Christianity:

    “We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century” (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

    “What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.” (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

    “What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God” (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

    LDS Apostle Orson Pratt – “…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people” (The Seer, pg. 255).

    First Counselor (to Brigham Young) Heber C. Kimball – “Christians – those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about – some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth….” (Journal of Discourses 5:89).

    This text was taken from:
    http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/mormatak.htm

    This is, unfortunately, another piece of evidence towards the belief that LDS is false – it seems to have drastically changed it’s tune on yet another core topic?

    Because it seems that today the LDS church calls itself a Christian religion, and explains to evangelicals that we have “some truth”, but lacking the complete truth that comes with the BOM – am I correct?

    Christianity -in the last hundred yearrs or so – has gone from “abomination” and “whoremasters of the earth” to a label the LDS church likes to put itself under. Why is this, Kathi?

    Why did the LDS church so drastically change it’s tune on Christianity? Once slandering it, but now trying to call itself Christian?

    Many Christians theorize that LDS likes to say, “Oh we’re Christians just like you! You’re just missing parts of the truth…” so that the religion doesn’t sound so, well, weird! Weird, because of the whole becoming gods, having our own planets, Jesus & satan being brothers, God literally having sex with Mary, Jesus traveling to America – that sort of weird. (and un-biblical)
    Unfortunately, many Christians who have not studied the Bible and are not well versed in scripture fall into the belief that LDS is just another Christian denomination when it is not. (This is why we are to put on the armor, as stated in the last passage I quoted). In reality – my Christ and the man your religion calls Jesus are two VERY different people. This is absolutely undeniable. And that is why we refuse to acknowledge LDS doctrine as classifying your religion as Christian.

    Thanks!
    Heather

    Reply
  • 28. Kathi  |  March 4, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    “The divine teaching in that vision began the restoration of the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. God the Son told the boy prophet that all the “creeds” of the churches of that day “were an abomination in his sight” (JS—H 1:19). We affirm that this divine declaration was a condemnation of the creeds, not of the faithful seekers who believed in them. Joseph Smith’s first vision showed that the prevailing concepts of the nature of God and the Godhead were untrue and could not lead their adherents to the destiny God desired for them.” Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

    If you are going to cut and paste your arguments…please don’t bother using inaccurate anti-mormon garbage. He did not say Chritianity was an abomination, but the Creeds.
    Look up creeds if you are unsure what those are.

    As far as the silly quotes, you have to remember you are quoting people who were sorely persecuted by the various sects…which is what they are referring to as christians, etc.

    Any quotes about proper authority needed to perform ordinances of the Gospel…proper authority is needed.

    I will stand at the judgement bar just as you will. At that time, you will bow down before the same Jesus Christ the Savior as I will. Happily, I know that He will know your heart and forgive you for all this venom you carry toward us.

    Kathi

    Reply
  • 29. Kathi  |  March 4, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    BTW, your comment about me doing the same to you as to bashing our religion….Not true and anyone can see that. those comments were to how you were responding to me, not in response to your beliefs and anyone reading that will see. You see, I am not bashing your beliefs. I said you were decieved about what you think you know about LDS. I am merely sharing with you the truth.

    Reply
  • 30. Heather  |  March 4, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    Kathi,

    When you say “you were decieved aboutwhat you think you know about LDS”, what are you referring to? Apart from the difference in the label as “Christian”.

    Can you also tell me exactly what I have said here that is so bad it can be labeled as “venom”?

    Thanks,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 31. Heather  |  March 4, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    Also – I happen to disagree that my attempts to shed light on the un-Biblical beliefs of the LDS church can be referred to as “bashing”.

    Again, the Bible refers to itself as a sword – truth can hurt! Speaking the truth of doctrine, however, does not immediately qualify as “bashing”.

    Still, as I mentioned above, I would very much like you to tell me exactly how my words are “venom”, and not the passionate use of truth *I* believe they are.

    Yours,
    Heather :-)

    Reply
  • 32. Heather  |  March 5, 2010 at 1:24 am

    Kathi -

    One more thing, I know what creeds are and my church uses them. They are a statement of faith, thus my creeds ARE Christian.

    Are you referring to my direct quotes of the LDS founders as “inaccurate anti-mormon garbage”? Because that is what I “cut and pasted”.

    Finally, are these words from the quotes of LDS founders referring to CREEDS?

    “ignorant people”
    “fools”
    “heathens”
    “most corrupt of all people”
    “whoremasters”

    because they DO seem to be referring to Christians, and I seem to remember a couple comments back you saying, ““These comments are ones that you would never hear us say back to you. What we would say is, “Heavenly Father loves you. You have some truth, come and learn more of what your Heavenly Father wants you to know…come partake of the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.””

    Thanks for any answers to my questions you might be able to provide.

    Blessings,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 33. Kathi  |  March 5, 2010 at 1:47 am

    You are really reaching now. I am not going any further because it’s beginning to make you look pretty silly.

    I already responded about the quotes you mined from anti-mormon material. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are misquoted…I am not going to waste time on them except to say that even if they are quoted correctly, these men were in the midst of sever persecution…so called Christian sects whose unChrist-like behavior had them burning houses down and tarring and feathering people…shall we talk about the horrific things they put the saints through? I have a feeling had you been living in their shoes, you might have also said something like that.
    Honestly….let us just agree to disagree. You are only making yourself look bad now.

    Reply
  • 34. Heather  |  March 5, 2010 at 10:26 am

    Kathi -

    I have asked you several times now to please, if you’re going to make serious & accusatory claims, to please explain exactly what you’re referring to. You haven’t. With all due respect, I do feel as if this approach – to make claims but not back them up by quoting what i have said to cause you to make such claims – feels like a copout. I have made strong claims against the LDS church, but also provided the reason for why I feels so strongly about each subject.

    Lastly, on persecution the Bible says:
    Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
    —1 Peter 4:12-14, 16

    I hardly feel that it is to glorify God by calling people such names as “whoremasters” and “ignorant” and “fools”. These were not just average Mormons either, but the church’s leaders at the time. I mention this, Kathi, because I feel like it speaks to the true nature of the LDS church.

    Yours,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 35. Kathi  |  March 5, 2010 at 10:55 am

    I addressed all that needed to be addressed. Anyone can read that. If you expect perfection from mortal men, then you must feel abhored at some of the biblical prophets who were not so perfect…Jonah comes to mind…he refused to do as the Lord asked and tried to hide from him…hmmm…..
    There are others as well. I know of many church leaders in the non-LDS Christian world that use just as harsh words against us at their pulpits today. You have to remember, that was in the 1800′s and the heated language at religious revivals led to strong words and not just from the mouths of OUR leaders. People in those times said and did things much differently than we do now. Why didn’t you address how poorly the Christians were acting toward the Mormon’s? Shall we bring up some dirt in Christian history in the 1700′s? Through the late 1700s, Reverend William Graham was rector and principle instructor at the Liberty Hall Academy in Lexington, Virginia. Every year, he lectured the senior graduating class on the value of slavery and used the Bible in his defense of it. But one could argue…those were the times…people thought differently in those days. EXACTLY! Didn’t make it right, but it was what it was.
    NEVER in today’s LDS churches would you EVER find talk like that against anyone. Infact, I dare you to peruse our General Conference talks in today’s world. Nonetheless, you have yet to provide valid sources…only quote mining from anti literature that usually quotes inaccurately. You only keep posting that to have the shock value…which says much about you. I find it appalling that you can’t let this go.
    Again, anyone reading this is seeing your true colors Heather. You are certainly not glorifying God at this point. You are judging men based on quotes you don’t even know are accurate because you accept garbage printed on anti sites….I would be careful if I were you. You will be judged by the same judgement you give out to others.
    Kathi

    Reply
  • 36. Kathi  |  March 5, 2010 at 10:59 am

    BTW, I challenge you to actually get on your knees and ask God personally how he feels about the LDS doctrine (or should I say His doctrine). I’ll bet you’ll be quite surprised.

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    Reply
  • 37. Kathi  |  March 5, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Heather,
    I thought I’d post this in an effort to show you that we are not the monster you would like to make us out to be. We work together with other churches for a common good. We all believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and want the best for our society.

    Cardinal George Addresses Religious Freedom in Speech at BYU.
    http://www.usccb.org/seia/catholics-latter-day-saints.pdf

    (here is a snipet)

    “The lesson of American history is that churches and other religious bodies prosper in a nation and a social order that respects religious freedom and recognizes that civil government should never stand between the consciences and the religious practices of its citizens and Almighty God,” he said.

    Speaking of the partnership Catholics and Mormons have in defending religious freedom, Cardinal George acknowledged that “sometimes our common advocacy will make one of us the target of retribution by intolerant elements” but emphasized that such actions should not deter religions from making their voices heard. “In the coming years, interreligious coalitions formed to defend the rights of conscience for individuals and religious institutions could become a vital bulwark against the tide of forces that work in our government and society to reduce religion to a purely private reality.”

    Cardinal George pointed out that “society is based not on individuals but on families, on mothers and fathers with duties and obligations to their children, on children who learn how to be human, in the school of love, which is the family, which tells us we are not the center of the world individually.”

    He also lauded the growing relationship between the Catholic Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and their joint efforts, such as providing aid to the poor and needy and combating pornography.

    “I’m personally grateful that after 180 years of living mostly apart from one another, Catholics and Latter-day Saints have begun to see one another as trustworthy partners in the defense of shared moral principles and in the promotion of the common good of our beloved country,” he said.

    “Our churches have different histories and systems of belief and practice, although we acknowledge a common reference point in the person and the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    Reply
  • 38. Heather  |  March 5, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Kathi -

    Please go back and read my first comments, you will see why the statement you just made: “If you expect perfection from mortal men, then you must feel abhored at some of the biblical prophets who were not so perfect…” is not so. The whole reason I posted here was to express to Marie that she is being held to an unachievable standard by the LDS church.

    Second, you say: “BTW, I challenge you to actually get on your knees and ask God personally how he feels about the LDS doctrine (or should I say His doctrine). I’ll bet you’ll be quite surprised.”

    I don’t need to do this at all. The Bible (which IS God – John 1:1) states: Rev 22:18 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    and
    2 Peter 2
    False Teachers and Their Destruction
    1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    The BOM claims to add to the Bible regarding the LDS religion and God warned of false prophets, such as Joseph Smith.

    On other matters I have said about a thousand prayers for help and assistance so far in my life – they have all been answered – as also promised in the Bible.

    Finally, again I have to ask that you please not use strong language ABOUT me such as me “making you out to be a monster”. My message all along has been to Marie and is that of love: you are welcome in God’s house and kingdom anytime through Christ ALONE and you are unworthy like the rest of us but that’s ok. (Note: I am not saying our permanent unworthiness doesn’t mean we shouldn’t glorify God by trying.)

    Blessings,
    Heather

    Reply
  • 39. Kathi  |  March 5, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    Sadly, your words have shown nothing of love Heather. You might want to reread it all. You have an opinion, and it differs from what we believe. We take what we believe seriously and it is in our hearts. So when you tell us our religion is false, you are attacking us personally.
    The funny thing is, I addressed everything and you just went in circles. Now, you have to throw out the “don’t add to the book” thing. Do you really want me to knock the box out from under you again? First, when that scripture was written, there was no Bible. Imagine that? So if that scripture means you can add nothing after the Book of Revelation…well, someone’s in trouble! And the Bible is the word of God, just as the Book of Mormon is, but are you saying the actually book is God? Wow, isn’t that idol worship? God is not a book. His words are there, but do you believe you can’t speak to God directly? Do you not believe in revelation? If so, Heather, I have something for you. He is there. He listens…AND He answers! He is a very loving God!
    We are in God’s Kingdom here on earth. He loves us, just as He loves you. You may not understand how we are, but just as God covenanted with His children in the Bible, He convenants with us today. We take those covenants very seriously. I’m sorry if you don’t understand that.
    I wish you the best Heather and again, I’ll repeat, we will bow down together before our Savior Jesus Christ when He comes….and you will see the truth we have.
    Kathi

    Reply
  • 40. R Coro  |  January 12, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    I can’t imagine the feeling of being attacked. My deepest sympathys. In regards to all the other content of your post. It appears you have been going back and forth from being a “rightteous and good person” to the complete opposite. I have been there and done that. I lost many nights sleep with my struggles. I’m not going to hide it so I’ll just say it really early here. I have decided to completely leave the church.
    I would suggest you cast aside all other expectations from family and friends. Isolate your own desires. Carefully think about them and do what you feel is right. When you have the courage to make a decision based up your sole desires, everything becomes easier and more rewarding. I have found my life is more rewarding and I have peace. There is a reason Utah has such a high depresson rate. I’m not going to but the entire blame on the church, but I don believe it has something to do with people living a life they may not necessarily want. Good luck.

    Reply

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